Isis’ Guide to Sensible Islam Posting

by

 

I am a conservative Republican. I am a freelance writer for several local media outlets. I also have journalistic experience. Therefore, today I am going to blend my regard for the complexities of Islamic culture with my experience as a journalist and provide friends, pundits, and fellow members of the Rightosphere with my Guide to Sensible Islam Posting. It is my hope that they are used to enhance productive discussion of Islam, its practitioners, and Americans of Muslim faith in our domain.

Let me start by stating why I feel it has time to set forth some rules. One word: BACKLASH.

When all you ever read about an entire group of people goes against your experiences with actual members of that population, you are inclined to disregard the author’s views. All of the author’s views. On all subjects. And this is beginning to happen to pundits failing to distinguish between Islamic terror-lovers and law-abiding, freedom-desiring Muslims who are supportive of the Global War on Terror.

Perhaps the best example of this backlash is related to littlegreenfootballs (abbreviated LGF). I fell in love with LGF during Rathergate. I detested Dan Rather’s liberal pontificating and anti-conservative slant on the news. I clicked LGF daily, looking for their latest take on the news of the day. They were bookmarked on my favorites.

That has ended. It is because of their focus on the latest insanity caused by individual Muslims as a way to blacken all followers of Mohammed. It is because of their focus on the most damning interpretations of the Koran and Islamic religious texts. And it is because they fail to adequately mention the presence, actions or existence of Humanist Muslims who embrace religious tolerance, promote personal freedoms, and desire change in repressive Islamic regimes.

I have real issues with LGF now. For example, the site initially failed to acknowledge the role played by Ali Eteraz in obtaining a letter describing the execution of an Iranian mother witnessed by her son. LGF is obviously unaware of Ali’s involvement in attempt to secure greater freedoms for women in the wider Muslim world. Ali is the classic example of a Humanist (the word he and I both prefer to “Moderate“) Muslim that the Rightosphere pundits seemingly desire to see (but more often silence).

Dean’s World currently chronicles LGF’s Taqqiya campaign:

But of course the Koran contains no such direction. Taqqiya is only to be invoked in extreme circumstances, so as to avoid bloodshed and horror. Furthermore, Taqqiya is actually rejected by a majority of Muslims worldwide. Indeed, most conservative Muslim scholars say that “taqqiya” is just code-word for “liar” and that lying is never acceptable under Islam.Get used to hearing that word, “taqqiya.” It is almost invariably a sure sign of a foaming, raging Muslim-hating Islamophobe.

Not many LGF readers have exposure to the Islamic world, have read the Koran, or know a Muslim with whom they may ask about subtleties in religious practice. Focusing on a small aspect of faith, magnifying its importance, presenting it as fact, and failing to recognize that the aspect is rejected by most Muslims does Islam an injustice. It diminishes LGF still further.

 

 

To top it off, LGF has become an Internet Book Tour for anti-Muslim viewpoints from non-Muslims (yes, I believe that the head of Jihad Watch can actually present a completely unbiased view of the Muslim community – NOT). This book, and the quotes and citations will be unquestioned by most LGF readers. For example, many authors, pundits and chatters have read the Koran and think they should be very proud of it because they can quote from it. I’ve read my Bible; during discussions, I could quote from it to make Christians look evil. However, if I am genuinely interested in making friends, allies and supporters of fellow Christians, what is the sense of insulting them? The same is no less true of fellow Americans of Muslim faith.

 

Michelle Malkin also recently lost a little of her luster. When Dean Esmay addressed his growing concerns about Islamophobia directly to her, Michelle responded with the most ill-considered, wild-eyed, dismissive electronic rant that I have seen (at least on my side of the blogosphere. I am given to understand that ill-considered, wild-eyed rants are routine in the Leftosphere. But I digress). I felt then that her blogo-explosion was because Dean had actually hit a nerve – a spot in Michelle’s conscience recognizes that perhaps she has crossed the line and not properly distinguished between Islamo-foes and Islamo-friends.

 

One of the biggest questions I get on the Rightosphere is how to differentiate a Wahhabbi-embracing nut job wanting to purda me or chop off my head from a regular, sane follower of Mohammed who embraces the same Constitutional principles I cherish (e.g. freedom of religion, equal opportunities for all, and the pursuit of happiness). I am hoping my Guide will be a good, first start.

 

***************************************

 

ISIS’ GUIDE TO SENSIBLE ISLAM POSTING

1) Learn to distinguish a news-worthy entry from the “Daily-Muslim-Outrage” (DMO) post.

For example, discussion worthy items are about terror groups and their actions. However, stories about child abuse and wife beating apply to members of all faiths, and can just as easily be used to tarnish Christians, too. Consider the actions of these Christians and leaders of Christian sects:

 

Andrea Yates

Fred Phelps

Warren Jeffs

Mary Winkler

Oliver O Grady

Dennis Rader

 

As a reader, I will gloss over the DMO – and if it is provided as an example of all Muslims, I will ignore any future content by the author.

 

However, I acknowledge that we must address the treat related to Islamic groups seeking the destruction of Israel, the United States and adding the West to a grand, new caliphate. For example, stories about the Coptic Christian experiences in Egypt, and struggles of minority religious groups in Turkey, are worthwhile. And, needless to say, Bin Laden updates are always great blog material.

2) Give Humanist Muslims their due.

It is laughable to me that the Rightosphere longs for a none-hateful Muslim presence, then silences any such voice that appears.

 

It would really help the Global War on Terror and national security, even on this small level, to acknowledge the contributions of Humanist Muslims like Ali Eteraz, Free Muslims Coalition against Terror, and the other voices normally dimmed by the din of passionate discussion. You will find Muslims promoting liberty and freedoms – the more you magnify their message, the safer we all will be. The recently issued TV ad by the Free Muslims Coalition is a great item to discuss.

3) Find new sources of information about the Muslim Community – especially in the United States.

One of my greatest personal frustrations as a Conservative Republican woman is that NOW representatives are trotted out to speak on all “women’s issues”. Frankly, I hope news organizations eventually find the Independent Women’s Forum. It is perhaps time to expand the Internet bookmarks a bit. Let me help:

 

http://eteraz.wordpress.com/

http://www.freemuslims.org/

 

I have discovered these two links alone are wonderful portals into Muslim thinking and practices that bear no resemblance to the Islamo-extremist stands of Western-hating Muslim militants.

4) Avoid the use of derogatory terms when discussing Islam, Mohammed and Muslims.

“Raghead” for example is a pejorative term that can only be wielded well by the most skilled pundits. Most skilled. Ann Coulter-level skilled. Bandied about in blog comments sections and chat rooms by lesser entities, it makes the poster’s contributions immediately dismissible. And don’t even get me started on muslime, muzzies, moohamedamna, ect.

 

And even then, such terms should only be used when clearly and concisely referring to Islamic-terrorist and evil-embracing Muslim clerics. Also, failing to capitalize Muslim, Islam, the Koran, and other proper names is just plain ignorant. Perpetrators may think they are making some grand point. They’re not.

5) Reading Robert Spencer’s latest book or citing “the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam” does not make you an Islamic scholar.

Neither does reading the Koran. Proper knowledge of the faith requires interaction and instruction from practicing, learned Muslims. Also, expand the reading list to include books from actual Islamic scholars, so you get actual interpretations of Islamic faith from living, breathing Muslims. Here are some suggestions – and Ali Eteraz probably has more worthy ones.

Soul on Islam;

6) Consider that ex-Muslims do not offer completely untainted views of their religion.

Just listen to the rantings of an ex-Catholic (e.g., George Carlin). While I appreciate the hardships that were endured by former Muslims, trotting out ex-Muslims to expound upon their experiences based on corrupted visions of their faith is not fair.

****************************************

IN CONCLUSION. I hope this is helpful. I think following these few, simple rules will help support healthier discussions about Islam and the relations with the Muslim community on a national and international level. It will make policy, tactical, and economic decisions more sound, as we will be acting with information instead of fear.

Interestingly, I could probably do the same list for discussions of Conservatism in the Mainstream Media. In fact, such a list exists. It can be found in a book called Bias.

I think the Rightosphere should consider that we do have much in common with Humanist Muslims.

By Isis

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513 Responses to “Isis’ Guide to Sensible Islam Posting”

  1. Dean's World Says:

    How To Be Sensible

    Isis is singing my song.

  2. double-plus-ungood Says:

    FYI, the term “raghead” is a really vile insult in Canada, equivalent to the n-word, and is directed at Sikhs rather than Muslims, and more generally at Pakistanis and East Indians. Better avoided entirely, IMO, no matter what level of punditry skill is utilized.

  3. isis13 Says:

    Hi double-plus-ungood: Normally, I would agree with you. And I myself will not use such terms. But I do cut some slack for having an anti-PC attitude, if it is well done, humorus and specific to Islamo-terrorists and their supporters. Few carry it off well, I agree.

  4. The Anchoress » Great Pumpkins, Bad Art and More Says:

    […] A new blog that you’ll want to give a look-see to, Smart and Final Isis, written by a woman with something to say about Islam, and it’s not what you’re used to. Michael Totten has already found her. But it’s about more than Muslims […]

  5. jh Says:

    You are going on my blogroll. Great post. I too am a very conservative republican. Heck call me radical right wing conservative Catholic. I too have been in a quandry this year dealing with conservatives. I must say Michelle Malkins “throwing red meat to the wolves” on this issue and immigration has driven me up the wall. I guess I showcase her as a example but she is not the only offender.
    It offends me that Iraqis are getting blown to bits but there sacrifice is never noted. I am tired of posting articles on conservative forums showing Muslims trying to assimilate into AMerican society and just being ridiculed for it. I guess I am tired of a frankly ignorant and un Christian attitude I have seen. An attiude that does harm. See as a example the Dubai port deal debacle and the harm that came out of that. I shall post this tonight. Good luck

  6. ajsuhail Says:

    Thank you for a sensible analysis of the problem. Muslims and Christians have forgotten the art of talking to each other and have let extremists on both sides of the spectrum hijack the debate.A pity really, when there is much in common .I look forward to reading your blog on a daily basis.

  7. Jeremayakovka Says:

    You set an exceptinally good tone for taking questions even farther than, say, Gates of Vienna and Eteraz have in their debate. Or in the discussion about Omeed Aziz Popal’s motives for his San Francisco SUV killing rampage.

    We need to have a handle on concepts native to the American social context (“individualism” “freedom” “happiness” “assimilation” and many more) and wield them better than, for example, the aggressive representatives of CAIR do. This site has great promise.

  8. Francis W. Porretto Says:

    “Proper knowledge of the faith requires interaction and instruction from practicing, learned Muslims.”

    I would dispute that this is at all important. What matters to a non-Muslim is the extent of the support Islam’s core doctrines and scriptures give to the desires and actions of the most violent among them. Indeed, to a non-Muslim this is all that matters. Since we regard Muhammad’s “revelations” as fraudulent — that’s implicit in being a non-Muslim — we have no interest in Islam for its own sake. Our only concern is the behavior of its adherents toward us “infidels.”

    As it happens, Islam’s core doctrines and scriptures quite explicitly state that Islam is to take political and religious hegemony over the entire world, by any means expedient. Whether the majority of Muslims subscribe to this jihadist prescription in all its implications is of no consequence; the jihadists do. More, they use those teachings to intimidate their more peaceable brethren into tolerating and passively supporting them, and to recruit impressionable young people to their cause, apparently quite successfully.

    Quite frankly, when Australian Christian pastors can be charged with a “hate crime” for “defaming Islam” and compelled to defend themselves in an Australian court, and when those selfsame pastors are forbidden to read from the Qur’an in defense of their own statements on the grounds that that constitutes “defaming Islam,” the matter is settled for me. That is a “faith” unfit for human consumption, a program of conquest with a few pseudo-theological trimmings, whose adherents ought to be very carefully watched.

  9. OK, I can’t stand most Repubs’ way of thinking these days, but… « Thoughts, Raves & Outright Beatings Says:

    […] This is the first posting on Christian/Muslim relations by an avowed conservative Republican that made ANY kind of sense to me. […]

  10. josh43 Says:

    Isis,
    Great concept and blog!! My compliments! This is long over due. I feel the “humanists” are the key factor in overcoming the extremists.

    ***********

    “One of the biggest questions I get on the Rightosphere is how to differentiate a Wahhabbi-embracing nut job wanting to purda me or chop off my head from a regular, sane follower of Mohammed who embraces the same Constitutional principles I cherish (e.g. freedom of religion, equal opportunities for all, and the pursuit of happiness).”

    With all due respect, I don’t see how your 6 points addresses this question. I acknowledge it is a very tough question.

    I have been observing the interactions of eteraz and the blogosphere from afar and he has convinced me of his sincerity of being a true “humanist”.

    Maybe he could try to answer this question.

    Obviously, it is all about dialouge(sp?).

    I have noticed in my, granted, minimal exposure to his writings, he has trended recently toward being less hesitant to criticize the teachings of Islam. Maybe that is a inaccurate assessment.

    But, unfortunately, that is what will convince most people of their sincerity. I think the trick is to present a balance so this approach is not just a blatant appeasement to the non-Muslims. Overall, I think eteraz has done this pretty well.

    Unfortunately, he has also taken a significant battering from the far right.

    I especially liked the links. I just wish there were more. One must start somewhere.

    I just hope it is more a reflection of a lack of wanting to step forward and being exposed than it is of have an inner belief system that still semi-supports the extremism (through fear of the repercussions – going to the fires of hell).

    *********

    BTW, I do read LGF, Malkin and Jihad Watch every day and find them very helpful. After trying to read some of the commenters posts, I just don’t go there anymore. Period.

    These types are in our society and are an unfortunate by-product of freedom of speech. I think one must stay focused on the light and not be distracted by the hate on either side.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

    Keep up the good work,
    josh43
    PS: For your blog, I would suggest a sidebar with a continual growing list of “humanist” Muslims and organizations that people can link to or search out.

  11. isis13 Says:

    josh43: Yes, I do see your point about my Guide. But a healthier discussion of Islam needs to start someplace if we wish to begin to learn to distinguish friend from foe. As I continue to find worthy links to alternative views presented by peace-desiring Muslims, I will add them to the blog role.

    Any assistance you can offer would be appreciated. I believe you and I can be allies in this endeavor. Thanks. 🙂

  12. josh43 Says:

    I would like to reconsider the statement below.

    “I have noticed in my, granted, minimal exposure to his (eteraz) writings, he has trended recently toward being less hesitant to criticize the teachings of Islam.”

    I think to be fair, I am reading eteraz’s blog from front to back (something I have wanted to do for a while now) so I can get a more complete understanding.

    I have only just started and continue to be impressed.

  13. josh43 Says:

    Isis,
    I would be glad to help in any way I can.

    *******

    I also think there are many more “conservative Republicans” that do not really feel comfortable in their “hawkish”, extreme stance and would welcome the humanist Muslims.

    They just need to have some encouragement and hope to want to come back more to the center.

    I feel they find themselves in this extreme position because their survival instinct has been stimulated by the extremists. And, on the surface, it would be safer to them and their families to use a broad brush and paint all Muslims as extremists.

    If the other approach is attempted, it is a slow and tedious effort in trying to see who one can trust. And one can still be wrong. Forget religious teachings, the common criminal in the US does not advertise his future wrong doings.

    This is where I think eteraz, with his considerable insight, can be very helpful.

    *********

    Dean Esmay deserves much credit for beginning this.

    However, I feel he does not do himself or the cause any favors by lashing out at the far right assholes. No matter how much these assholes deserve it.

    This only puts up a wall of EGO between the parties and no further progress can be made.

    It is not about who wins the argument.

    Granted, some people will never make progress but these people should just be ignored. That is the worst insult of all.

    **********

    I am also a big fan of Totten. He also deserves much credit for speaking up for Dean and eteraz. However, I think Totten makes a good counterpoint in his post – “The Flip Side of “Islamophobia”.

    ********
    This will be a very difficult thing to accomplish but very important.

    I look forward to seeing where this new blog takes us all.

  14. Yursil Says:

    Peace to you,

    I have been astounded by the “Right” blogosphere’s attack on the faith of Muslims. Frankly, it has been seriously misconstrued to create a picture of an entire faith geared towards hate.

    This is obviously not true, and a simple example of that is the principles that Muslims have revered for centuries which exist -PART OF TRADITIONAL- Islam.

    I love Ali Eteraz as a brother, but he does represent a reformist point of view generally. This does not help the above cause as it makes it clear the only good Muslims are the few who have ‘broke from the mold’.

    The left caters to him, but sadly the right does not look to find those in the real, legitimate, majority Muslim world which have idea’s that are in line with their own.

    Traditional Muslims align with the right on a number of issues, including abortion being minimized, gay-marriage, traditional family values.

    Why doesn’t the Right reach out to us? We don’t stop at atheistic humanism but we are human loving people!

    If Spencer thinks he has understood Islam by going to source texts on the Prophet’s (Peace be upon him) sayings, then I say he has fallen into the exact same trap as the Terrorists. Free self interpretation. Why doesn’t Spencer do an analysis on the saints of Islam, who taught Islam and explained it and represetn the reality of Islam in practice in tangible ways?

    Why aren’t the teachings of the saint Shaykh Maulana Nazim and Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani, Shaykh Baha ud din Naqshbani, etc mentioned by anyone?

  15. samaha Says:

    Thank you so much for this post.

    I have to disagree with Yursil though. I think that Ali’s views do represent the majority of secular Muslims. You have to remember that the majority of Muslims are secular and those are the ones that you don’t hear from, the ones that stay quiet.

  16. isis13 Says:

    josh43: I agree with many of your points and look forward to your continued contributions to this site.

    Yursil: You will never find me debating the finer points of Islamic theology on this site. In fact, I will never enter into religious debate — I am simply no theologian. That is, unless I am reviewing the finer points of Mut vs Isis worship: The only time I will analyze religion is when I discuss ancient Egypt, as I do on my Egypt site:

    http://www.mutnodjmetsmusings.blogspot.com/

    That being said, I welcome your comments and contributions to new sources of links and information. That way, interested people can find out more from your perspective. In that way, we all have the opportunity to learn something new. For example, in your comment you mention that “traditional Muslims align with the right on a number of issues, including abortion being minimized, gay-marriage, traditional family value.” I hadn’t given that much thought until now, and I think it is an excellent point.

  17. Yursil Says:

    Peace to you Samaha..

    Samaha, the majority of -Muslims- who actually attend courses in Islam in say, Madrassas, are what we would call traditional Muslims. Muslims who live in villages across the third world and have no understanding of the meaning of “secular”. Secular inherently meaning non-religious. So are you asserting that the majority of Muslims are non-religious? I hope not.

    As far as whether I claimed traditional Muslims are more or less secular than non traditional Muslims, I don’t think I made such a claim. It is true that traditional Muslims value Islamic Law, even in Iraq it was a big deal that “Islamic Law” was written into the constitution.

    As far as that Law and whether that is secular, we can take a look at what the Muslim people have asked for, very simply. Islamic Law mirrors ‘secularism’ in Law as that it is often based off of reason and not ‘Divine authority’ by an overseeing organization.

    However it also bases its moral principles off of not the simple majority but Islamic values, which essentially become one and the same..but this is another thing for you to consider and study upon.

    Of the Iraqi constitution:
    “Article 2:

    First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:”

    That was voted on by a majority. Other Muslim states have similar wording in their constitutions.

    Reformists Muslims wish to simply copy the extreme leftists of the West who want gay marriage, free abortions, etc etc etc… and eliminate that line and all the moral background behind it.

    Real traditional Muslims cite the Islamic faith as things against the above.

    Why doesn’t the Right recognize us? Why arn’t -our- blogs linked to? Why does the Right accept their terminology of humanist Muslims etc etc?

    Peace to you Isis,

    I understand that, but I don’t think this is a theological debate. Simply the fact that people such as Ali Eteraz don’t represent the majority, though they are good people.

    There is a reason why they find home in the leftists blogospheres and not on popular Muslim blogs such as http://www.sunnisister.com or http://www.seekersdigest.org who are not high on technorati rankings like Ali, but they are more popular amoungst Muslims.

  18. Yursil Says:

    Sorry link http://www.sunnisisters.com (forgot the last s for savings 😉 )

  19. homeyra Says:

    Thx for this guide!
    I will try to use it 🙂

  20. homeyra Says:

    Btw. I am what you would call a muslim, though it is not the first or the last word I would use to define myself. But I had never heard of Jihadists, Islamo-this, and Islamo-that etc.. until recently. Where do these people come from? My neighbors seems descent! 🙂

  21. josh43 Says:

    I think many of the issues in religion have to do with labels and not the specifics of one’s beliefs.

    Like the term “humanists”, I think a generic phrase or word is a better way to describe the many “religious” people on earth.

    For want of a better phrase, I like “Followers of God” or “Children of God” or whatever.

    Not followers of Jesus Christ or the Prophet or Buddha or Abraham or ….

    Ultimately, these other Followers of God, like Buddha, et al, are NOT the ones to worship.

    God is the only one to worship.

    These followers can be helpful with guidance but not an absolute truth that should not be questioned.

    Some religions may disagree with this but that is how all the problems begin.

    Believing that one has the access to God’s absolute truths.

    ********

    So why not go right to the top (God) and talk about one’s beliefs. And accept that there is no absolute “right” way to think regarding life. We are all trying to figure this thing out called life and God and no one is the absolute authority on “truth” or has absolute access to it.

    Each person having (an individual perception of) God’s truth.

  22. josh43 Says:

    The Issue of Doubt

    I think Andrew Sullivan is currently raising this very important point with his conservative colleagues on the far right just as eteraz is doing with his Muslim colleagues.

    To question is not a bad thing. God gave us a brain with the capacity to do just that. If God did not wish for us to perform critical thinking, it would have been a lot easier to omit this from our human capabilities.

    But God did not.

    Why?

    To test us. This, I do not believe.

    **********

    It’s the answers to our introspection and how we apply these answers to the rest of God’s followers that are the only things that really matter.

    Are we using these introspective journeys to help and advance mankind in kindness and goodness?

    Or to tear each other down?

    That is the real test.

  23. ninglun Says:

    I thank you for this post, which I have noted on my site. This could be the first time I, an anti-Howard Australian, have so thoroughly agreed with a right-wing Republican!

  24. josh43 Says:

    pacific_waters says:
    “What is at issue is not whether there are “moderate” muslims but whether a preponderance of muslim societies and leaders advocate sharia law, the destruction of israel and view the west, specifically the United States, as the primary cause of the problems in the islamic world.”

    I agree that these are major issues. This topic brings up many questions.

    ******

    “the weight of the evidence indicates that that reformists have no power or authority on the islamic world.”

    Unfortunately, I feel this may be true as well. Do any muslims have input on this comment?

    **********

    “When the majority of muslims in the majority of muslim nations take to the streets to condemn violence instead of engaging in it then I’ll believe there is a chance of peace between our respective worlds.”

    To humanist or moderate muslims,
    is there any other way than the above approach that we non-muslims can be assured of the peaceful ways of the moderate, “true” Muslim?

    How likely is it that the above will happen?

    *********

    pacific_waters,
    I don’t think the comment “Have u lost it?” is a productive aspect of your very valid post. You can state your opinions strongly without denigrating others.

    Respectfully,
    josh43

  25. isis13 Says:

    josh43 wrote: I don’t think the comment “Have u lost it?” is a productive aspect of your very valid post. You can state your opinions strongly without denigrating others.

    Respectfully,
    josh43

    REPLY FROM THE MIGHTY ISIS: No it does not. And that is why you will not see Pacific Waters comments any longer. Please review the “Thanks for Your Interest” post in this blog. Distasteful, discourteous comments will be promptly removed.

  26. isis13 Says:

    homeyra: Salaam alaykhum. The terms Islamo-fascist or Jihadist, at least as I use them, distinguishes you and your neighbors from the practitioners of your religion that embrace terror, relish in the martial aspects of the Koran, and wish to impose sharia law on my nation, my family and myself. You and your neighbors I will refer simply to as friends and fellow Americans. 🙂

  27. isis13 Says:

    MIGHTY ISIS SAYS: This blog site will not entertain debate on whether there are Humanist Muslims. There are. I am here to amplify their message, not prove their existence. If you question this premise, then take your views to an alternative venue.

  28. josh43 Says:

    ISIS says:
    “This blog site will not entertain debate on whether there are Humanist Muslims. There are. I am here to amplify their message, not prove their existence. If you question this premise, then take your views to an alternative venue.”

    Maybe I missed it but was the question of whether Humanist Muslims exist put forth in this comments section?

    ********
    I do think this is a valid question though.

    “the weight of the evidence indicates that that reformists have no power or authority on the islamic world.”

    Or rather how much power? And is it significant enough to help dramatically alter the course of events? Is there a desire to alter events?

    If so, I think this is what will bring the far right more to the center.

  29. Yursil Says:

    Isis,

    why is my comment awaiting moderation?

  30. Yursil Says:

    Josh43,

    Reformists Muslims, as Ali Eteraz describes himself on his about page, obviously do not represent the majority. What would the point of reform be then? 🙂

    Such ideas can act as proxy’s (for example: http://eteraz.wordpress.com/2006/07/23/convergence-of-traditionalism-and-jihadism/) when describing traditional views.

    But then again, why not also hear the voice of the source as well?

    Reform is not necessary for Islam to be accepted as a kind, neighborly religion. There are plenty of us who live in America and have no desire to impose anything upon anyone, and only seek to apply the Shariat in its personal aspects within our own families (how to do our inheritance, marriage ceremonies, etc).

    Frankly America offers us freedoms which we are thankful for. In the Middle East the governments control religion including sermons.

    My other post, which mentioned the following, has been marked for moderation for some reason, but I will end with this:

    Of the Iraqi constitution:
    “Article 2:

    First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:”

    That was voted on by a majority. Other Muslim states have similar wording in their constitutions. There is a meaning behind it, and maybe everyone (right and left) need to come to an understanding on how the majority of Muslims view the very malleable Shariat.

  31. moonsister Says:

    Wow, Isis, being a Muslim myself, I greatly applaug your posts to improve the relations of other religions with Islam. Thanks for that !

  32. syn Says:

    The Josh43 poster calls the rar right ‘assholes’ because Dean Esmay said so while complaining of Other’s degenerating comments yet expects some sort of respect .

    In any case be it Christian Fascists or Islamic Jihadists, Athesist humanists or Buddha’s Brutes I would be saying the same thing about the actions taken by those who seek to impose their extremism on everyopne else.

    AT this point in time I don’t see Christian extremists unleashing their distorted ideology upon the world since they have been religated to the trash bin decades ago. I do however see Islamic extremists unleashing their distorted ideology around the world. Unless peaceloving Muslims do something in much the way peaceloving Christians did something about extremists Christians then non-Muslims will be forced into defending themselves against Islamic extremism.

    It cannot be said that Islam is the Religion of Peace when Islamic believers are purposefully killing all non-muslim believers in Somalia, Congo, Sudan or hanging people because they are homosexual, or having people arrested because some offensive word was said against a Muslim, or kidnapping then forcing conversion in order to bereleased or artificially imposing Islam’s religious laws (Shar’ia) upon non-theocratic Democracy.

    America’s philosophy is based upon Christian-Judeo beliefs simply because this is the majority of beleivers in this part of the world however we are not governed by these religions. In America no one is forced to believe, (there are no religious policemen) whereas Muslims must believe in Islam. This is why at this moment in time Islam is incompatable with Democracy, Muslims cannot leave their faith without experiencing the consequences of such act and those those consequences (honor killlings, fatwas etc) are what is in direct conflict with Democratic rule of law.

    It is one thing to uphold the philosophy behind any one of these religion as a social means to kindness, peacefulness, and all around humanism(I believe it is a good idea to allow for religious philosophy be it Islamic, Christian, Judiasm, Buddhism, etc, etc in the public square as it generally provides a supportive base from which we can all co-exist) however to insist that one religion is the supreme religion over all Other and forceably incorporates this practice then the wrold is going to have problems.

  33. Yursil Says:

    Syn,

    I find your post lacking depth.

    America’s philosophy is based upon Christian-Judeo beliefs simply because this is the majority of beleivers in this part of the world however we are not governed by these religions.

    Of course we are not goverened by religious organizations or entities, but the religious framework for many laws is very clear. Why is there opposition to Gay Marriage in America? Why are women not allowed to walk in the streets without covering their breasts, as in Africa?

    “In God we trust!”

    These are concepts of morality and decency which stem from a religious background. The same right to determine what is modest and immodest, what is good and bad, this is the same right that Muslims ask for -IN OUR MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES- and we too want to base it off of our understanding of our religious sensibilities.

    Those of us living as minorities understand that we are not here to dictate, we are simply here to live our lives peacefully with our neighbors, practice the religion the best we can in our private lives.

    Of course, there are criminals doing a lot of things all across the world. Buddhists in North Korea just exploded a nuke and have long range missle technology. Are we condemning all of them? No we need to understand who are the criminals and what they are doing is simply using religion as an excuse for hate..

    They are criminals just like Christians who bomb abortion clinics or attacked Matthew Shepard for homosexuality. The Muslim versions of those don’t have the backing of the majority, they may just happen to have all the guns in an environment of lawlessness and poverty.

  34. Fahad Says:

    Salam.
    Nice post Isis 🙂 . One disagreement:

    “5) Reading Robert Spencer’s latest book or citing “the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam” does not make you an Islamic scholar.

    Neither does reading the Koran. Proper knowledge of the faith requires interaction and instruction from practicing, learned Muslims. Also, expand the reading list to include books from actual Islamic scholars, so you get actual interpretations of Islamic faith from living, breathing Muslims.”

    Reading or studying the Koran can make one a Islamic/Koranic scholar. After studying the Koran, one can decide which of the Islamic scholars and Muslims are truely islamic.

  35. Fahad Says:

    Salam.
    Nice post Isis 🙂 . One disagreement:

    “5) Reading Robert Spencer’s latest book or citing “the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam” does not make you an Islamic scholar.

    Neither does reading the Koran. Proper knowledge of the faith requires interaction and instruction from practicing, learned Muslims. Also, expand the reading list to include books from actual Islamic scholars, so you get actual interpretations of Islamic faith from living, breathing Muslims.”

    Reading or studying the Koran can make one a Islamic/Koranic scholar. After studying the Koran, one can decide which of the Islamic scholars and Muslims are truely islamic.

  36. josh43 Says:

    Syn says:
    “The Josh43 poster calls the rar right ‘assholes’ because Dean Esmay said so while complaining of Other’s degenerating comments yet expects some sort of respect.”

    Point well taken. That was hypocritical on my part. My apologies.

  37. josh43 Says:

    ISIS,
    I see many different topics in these comments that I would like to comment on.

    But it would appear to me that this section will get very messy and difficult to follow very fast in its current form.

    May I suggest some new topic posts that will reflect these topics and therefore organize things better.

  38. samaha Says:

    Josh43:

    ““the weight of the evidence indicates that that reformists have no power or authority on the islamic world.”

    Unfortunately, I feel this may be true as well. Do any muslims have input on this comment?”

    Look into Mustafa Ceric. He is one of the signatories on the letter to the pope. You should probably look into all of those signatories, as I believe that they all have power/authority within the Muslim world, serving on leading clerical councils.

    Mustafa Ceric had condemned Hezbollah in the Lebanon/Israel conflict this summer. He drew much criticism for that from the Muslim world, however such bold moves draw debate and discussion within the Islamic community.

    Also, change will take place in the Muslim world through the west’s Muslims and the example that they set. It will be through our voices that the average Ahmed will see that democracy is not the big Satan and that democracy and Islam can live in peace. It will be through our protests that these muslims will start to wake up and question things.

    The whole ordeal with the Australian cleric is a case in point. Muslims are appauled and voicing their disgust. I’m sure that those same speeches are held all over the Islamic world, holding women responsible and they go unnoticed without provoking a thought.

    ————————————–

    ““When the majority of muslims in the majority of muslim nations take to the streets to condemn violence instead of engaging in it then I’ll believe there is a chance of peace between our respective worlds.”

    To humanist or moderate muslims,
    is there any other way than the above approach that we non-muslims can be assured of the peaceful ways of the moderate, “true” Muslim?

    How likely is it that the above will happen?”

    Actually it has happened. 9/11 I believe that in Iran a whole stadium full of people had protested. Not only that but they were beat by the police and the government tried to squash the event. Also candlelight vigils and demonstrations did take place the Islamic world over. Iraq, Iran, Bangladesh. 1 million Palestinian kids stood in silence.

    It happens, yes it takes something big to do it.

    Do we hear about it? No.

    Why? What’s news: Hamas chairman says he wants to drive Israel into the Sea or Muslim cleric condems unjust dealings with non-muslims.

    Now, as Muslims, yes, we should do more. We’ve started. You can see it with the Muslims who are here discussing with you.

  39. isis13 Says:

    Dear Friends: If your polite and sensible comments are awaiting moderation, it is simply because I haven’t had a chance to screen them from the less worthy ones.

    Josh43: Please be patient. As you see, the route for health dialog and understanding has been too long closed. Smart and I have started this site to address many of your questions — or at least get the questions to someone who has more insight. Trust me, more posts are on their way.

  40. isis13 Says:

    SAMAHA: I just read your fabulous comment regarding Mustafa Ceric. I was unaware of him, and will dig deeper in order to present more information on his views to members of the Rightosphere. This is exactly the kind of dialog I was hoping to start on this blog, and hope you are a frequent visitor to this site.

  41. walkercolt Says:

    Yursil,
    Sorry, but your “throw-away” comment on Matthew Shepard’s attackers has to be answered. The men who beat him up and left him to die were not Christians, and the implied motive of “killing for Christ” due to their target’s homosexuality is outrageous.

    Henderson & McKinney targeted Shepard for robbery – certainly not a Christian activity. Their girlfriends testified that they had plotted to rob a gay man, and met Shepard in a bar. They not only robbed him and tied him to a fence, but also intended to burglarize his home. A few years after the trial, it was stated by one of the former girlfriends that the motive was related to drugs and money, not even hate of Matthew because he was gay.

    In no way do I lessen their crime in stating this – they SHOULD be serving their life sentences for Shepard’s murder. But you commit an offense by declaring his attackers Christian.

    I fail to see the influence of Christianity in all this – please enlighten this blog and it’s readers as to how you do.

  42. Yursil Says:

    walkercolt,

    Were they atheists?

    Anti-Homosexual beliefs and stigmas stem from a biased, bigoted, yet religious background, (similar to Muslim terrorists) and as far as I know those two men were born into Christian families.

    Frankly, I find the idea that he was killed for robbery and not hate, and the fact that you have bought into that idea ridiculous. They wanted to rob a -gay man-, the motive was not the money in itself. The excessive beating, to me, makes it quite clear this was a hate crime.

    Once we establish the crime involved hate, we only have to see what were the cultural and religious underpinnings for that hate.

    As far as I know ” hanging people because they are homosexual” which Syn accused Muslims of in a “throw away comment” of his/her own meets the same criteria. People who happen to be born in one religion committing crimes against humanity.

    I believe that my comment also gave the example of abortion house bombers, who cite the Bible often, what do you think of those ones I wonder?

    Explain this site to a confused Muslim: http://www.armyofgod.com/POClist.html

    My point is you cannot blame the peaceful religion, even IF they use it as an excuse, or if it is simply a cultural backdrop. Both Christianity and Islam are innocent of this.

    Islam is just in a position where the few who are evil can easily overwhelm the rest into inaction, silence or death with their threats, guns, and bombs.

  43. isis13 Says:

    walkercolt: I am going to step here for a moment and state that I feel Yursil is within his rights to bring up the Matthew Sheppard killing, in a way. In the Rightosphere blogs and chat rooms I enter, I constantly see the latest crime committed by a Muslim (e.g., child molest, wife beating) to codemn each and every last Muslim. YOU say that that the killers were not not following Christ, and therefore not Christian. Then are evil Muslims truly members of Islam?

    That is why it is critical, if we are going to discuss Islam and its followers in any meaningful way to distinguish between the DMO story and truly news-worthy events. Focusing on the DMO is distracting and distasteful.

    Yursil: On this matter, you have made a good point. And perhaps I will delve into this issue further in another post. However, I urge you to also be circumspect. For example, your comment to Syn: I” find your post lacking depth”, is not in the tenor I am hoping to achieve here.

    This is the first time some Rightosphere people are having a chance to dialog with Muslims. Please give us a chance to catch up, and do cut us a little slack.

    I am sorry I haven’t time for more, but I have a 5-year old to put to bed tonight. I want

  44. Yursil Says:

    Peace Isis,

    Thank you for the reminder that you are ‘catching up’. In that light, I am sorry I made that comment. I hope Syn is as willing to have a productive conversation as you are.

    I will try to continue to temper my comments in the future on this blog, as I believe that most of you are looking to have a dialogue and not continue to the senseless attack.

    And I pray those few rotten apples present don’t bring out my ego too much..

  45. isis13 Says:

    Yursil: I am delighted you are joining me in the spirit of this discussion, and and thrilled that you are taking the time to post on such weighty subjects. Please keep in mind that on this blog site, Smart and Final Isis, I will not tolerate insults nor trite, ignorant remarks. As I have said elsewhere, there are many venues in the Rightosphere where discourtesy to Muslims is tolerated (if not encouraged), because “Muslims will always lie to non-Muslims” or “Muslims consider us infidels, so why should we respect them?”. I will not have healthy discussions usurped by such cretins.

    If such comments do appear, then I will promptly delete them and the author of such bigotry will no longer be able to comment here.

    However, many in the Rightospere have expressed genuine concerns, and have real fears. I am hoping to present these to you and other members of the Islamic Community in future posts. I will do so, however, with respect and an open mind and heart.

    I expect all contributors to be thoughtful. You have to understand, there are MANY, MANY members of the Rightosphere who feel exactly the same way I do. However, we haven’t had the resources, experience, or knowledge to respond to the the materials issued on Jihad Watch or other anti-Islam blogs in a meaningful way. I am hoping this site acts as a portal, so we can demonstrate that Muslims ARE interested in peace and CAN embrace democracy.

  46. samaha Says:

    Yursil – sorry I hadn’t caught your comment directed to me. I am sorry. I was referring to Muslims in the west and outside of the Middle East.

    As for the Middle East, those that have gone to Madrassa. Well, it depends. You can not say with certainty what they are. Just because one has gone and taken courses in Islam does not make them religious. Neither does their practicing their faith in public. Still I will venture to guess that the majority of those Muslims are religious.

    Isis – I was working on a post in regards to Mustafa Ceric. Dr. Ceric taught me to read and write Arabic and I attended his adult classes at our mosque. He was not only the Imam at our mosque, but him and his wife were close personal friends of my parents. I was hoping to actually do an e-mail interview with him but haven’t had the time to track down his e-mail address.

  47. samaha Says:

    And of course I will visit often. I have just blogrolled you.

    Your blog is trully appreciated and a wonderful example of nurture for the sake of humanity and peace.

  48. josh43 Says:

    samaha says,
    “Just because one has gone and taken courses in Islam does not make them religious.”

    Good point Samaha. I think this point can apply to all religions.

    *********

    Just out of curiosity, how does one define being “religious”?

  49. Smart Says:

    Josh, I define “religious” as adhering to principles of religious doctrine. Please note that Christ himself took issue with those Pharisees of his day who were not that far from the religious zealots of today. They were big on “death to those who sin”, for example. Lucky for the woman caught in the act of adultery, Jesus asked the man without sin to cast the first stone.

    In other words, you can adhere to doctrine and be as far removed from the true changes in heart and mind the nature of God requires of us all that you lose sight of the point of being a follower, which is to spread the love of God.

  50. josh43 Says:

    Smart, Interesting response. You make me think.

    Smart says:
    “In other words, you can adhere to doctrine and be as far removed from the true changes in heart and mind the nature of God requires of us all that you lose sight of the point of being a follower, which is to spread the love of God.”

    Do you think one can achieve the flip side of that concept?

    “ONE DOES NOT adhere to doctrine (for whatever reason) and YET STILL be as CLOSE TO the true changes in heart and mind the nature of God requires of us all that you ARE STILL ABLE TO MAINTAIN sight of the point of being a follower, which is to spread the love of God.”

    This being achieved by how one lives one’s daily life. By spreading the love of God on a daily basis and in God’s name.

    If one were to achieve this WITHOUT knowing or following the doctrines of religion “A” (place whichever religion one prefers HERE = A), would one still be considered to be “religious”?

  51. samaha Says:

    From a muslim perspective I would think that religious means “submitting to the will of Allah”. I don’t believe that man can actually define what “submitting to the will of Allah” actually means (as each persons definition would be different) or deem a person “religious” or “not religious” as that judgement would fall upon Allah only. I believe it would be up to each individual to make the assertion “I am religious”, “I am not religious”.

    Also, as far as I know, Islam does not “punish” those who do not follow Islam, nor “reward” those who were born Muslim. Those who do not know Islam can not be blamed for not being born into the religion. You could still go to “heaven” and never have prayed a single muslim prayer and I could still go to “hell” and believed in god, prayed 5 times a day, fasted during the month of ramadan, paid charity, and gone to Hajj. I don’t know if that helps with your question of if one would be considered religious or not.

  52. Smart Says:

    Josh, you can consider yourself a kumquat and it doesn’t make you one. You would have to look, act, smell, and taste like one.

    I realize this comment sounds flip, but a one-on-one-human-to-human approach seems to be the one that works. Not the “let me indoctrinate you with my doctrine” approach.

    Bottom line, I never trust anyone who tells me how religious they are, goes on and on about “their church”, or what office they do in their church, or what programs their church has.

    You can take that a step further and say that I never trust anyone who hides behind their “religion” in order to advance doctrine and ideology. If God’s love is truly in their heart and mind, it will be obvious from their demeanor and their speech and their actions. I know a kumquat after I’ve had a few seconds to examine it. Ideologues don’t even take that long.

  53. josh43 Says:

    Samaha, I like your response.

    Like most things, I believe much of what we do or believe in life is very individualistic and personal.

    I am not a Christian. It would seem to me that “submitting to the will of Allah” in Christian teachings would boil down to one basic tenet:

    as Smart said, “to spread the love of God”.

    I would think from a Christian perspective that this could be considered being “religious”.

    At least that is my take on Christianity. Maybe I am wrong.

    *******

    It makes me wonder if the other great religions of the world, like Islam, Buddhism, Judaism or Hinduism, et al, would consider this tenet (“spreading the love of God”) to be “their one basic teaching” above all else?

  54. josh43 Says:

    Smart,
    Great post! I need to go. I will respond later tonight.

    ********

    I had heard the term kumquat frequently but really was not sure of its true meaning so…

    “The kumquat or cumquat is a small fruit-bearing tree in the genus Fortunella. Its fruit (which is also called “kumquat”) closely resembles those of the related genus Citrus, and, like that genus, it is also classified in the flowering plant family Rutaceae.

    It is a slow-growing, evergreen shrub or small tree, from 2.5-4.5 m tall, with dense branches, sometimes bearing small thorns. The leaves are dark glossy green, and the flowers pure white, similar to citrus flowers, borne singly or clustered in the leaf-axils.” — Wiki

    The learning never stops at this new blog! 🙂

  55. walkercolt Says:

    Yursil,

    A few comments on your followup post.

    “My point is you cannot blame the peaceful religion, even IF they use it as an excuse, or if it is simply a cultural backdrop. Both Christianity and Islam are innocent of this.”

    But you did blame the religion. Your statement on the religious identity of Matthew Shepard’s killers is quite clear. In essence you did exactly what this blog is attempting to address – blaming a religion for actions of the individual. And in this case, they didn’t claim to be acting in the name of Christianity, unlike a great many killers these days who claim to be acting in the name of Islam. If your point was as stated above, the wording of it isn’t clear.

    “Were they Atheists?”

    I don’t know. There’s no mention of what faith they followed.

    “Anti-Homosexual beliefs and stigmas stem from a biased, bigoted, yet religious background, (similar to Muslim terrorists) and as far as I know those two men were born into Christian families.”

    Being born into a Christian family is no guarantee of being Christian. By way of example, my niece, born and raised in a Christian home, is not a Christian, and is also gay. She certainly didn’t pick up biased, bigoted feelings on homosexuality.

    “I believe that my comment also gave the example of abortion house bombers, who cite the Bible often, what do you think of those ones I wonder?”

    I condemn their actions as well – they also deserve the punishment meted out to them by society.

    Isis,

    To equate the Shepard case with acts of “evil Muslims” is a bit odd – the killers of Matthew Shepard never claimed to be Christians, or to be acting on the behalf of Christianity, Many “evil Muslims”, as you call them, do make a claim to be following Islam, and justify their actions by quoting their scriptures. It doesn’t matter if I think they are true Muslims – THEY think they are, and just like the abortion clinic bombers mentioned by Yursil, impute a negative image to the faith they claim to follow.

  56. Reis-Ulema “Grand-Mufti” Dr. Mustafa Ceric « Samaha Says:

    […] Earlier this month I did a post titled “Muslim scholars write letter to Pope” in which I had mentioned that I knew one of the signatories and over Wa Salaam’s there is a post where I had mentioned that I would write up a post about this Imam.  I had even started it, but decided that I had wanted to track down Dr. Ceric’s e-mail address or phone number to do an interview with him but found myself often long on the to-do’s and short on time.  It was finally over at Smart and Final Isis’s post Isis’ Guide to Sensible Islam posting in which I had found myself once again mentioning Reis-Ulema Mustafa Ceric.  I have decided that it is time to do just write this up and do the interview at another time. […]

  57. Kamal Nawash Says:

    Greetings from Free Muslims,

    On behalf of the Free Muslims Coalition, I want to thank you on this blog ad the great work you are doing. I hope you enjoy continued success.

    Kamal Nawash
    http://www.FreeMuslims.org

  58. Kamal Nawash Says:

    Greetings from Free Muslims,

    On behalf of the Free Muslims Coalition, I want to thank you on this blog and the great work you are doing. I hope you enjoy continued success.

    Kamal Nawash
    http://www.FreeMuslims.org

  59. isis13 Says:

    Dear Kamal: Thank you for taking the time to visit this blog and wish our success. I am thrilled. Please, please, please keep us updated on your organization’s ad, activities, and media events. We need to keep the gates of communication open, and I would like to help in any way possible.

  60. Conservatarian Says:

    I believe you wrongfully tarnish Robert Spencer and his work at Jihadwatch.org. I find Robert to be a fine and intellectually honest individual. Contrary to the mistatements of some of his critics, Robert acknowledges that there are moderate Muslims (such as the good folks at FeeMuslims.org). His point is that the the jihadist / impose Shari’a law branch of Islam seems to be predominating.

    Robert is very clear that Kamal Nawash and others do good work, but don’t seem to be generally supported in the Muslim community. Look at the unfortunately small participation in the FreeMuslims.org march in Washington DC. It is sad that the support they do have is not more vocal.

    Also unfortunately, the higher profile organization, CAIR, focuses on victimization-whining rather than positive efforts toward a multi-cultural harmony.

    Robert Spencer supports his views with quaotations from the Korna, the Haditha and Islamic scholars widely accepted in teh Islamic world. Even a small minority willing to kill themsleves in order to kill more of us are awfully dangerous.

    We dare not fail to understand the source rationale of the terrorists, or terrorism cannot be effectively fought.

  61. Claire Says:

    Samaha’s (for example) view of Islam differs greatly from Jihadists view of Islam. Instead of telling me that by reading the Koran and seeing what Jihadists are wreaking today, I STILL know nothing about Islam, and that only Humanist Muslim know what real Islam is, then I must conclude that it is Humanist Muslim responsibilty to change the minds of the Jihadists, not mine. Since I am clearly not capable and never will be…….

    LGF does post the words of lots of Humanist Muslims and applauds their efforts. Ali, Rushdie, Sultan, Phares, the list goes on. You can’t say they never do.

  62. isis13 Says:

    Claire: You will have to forgive me if I have missed the LGF references to Humanist Muslims. These references are never cited in the posts within the Conservative spheres I inhabit. If you are so inclined, please provide this site with the links to these references on LGF in the future. It will be gratefully appreciated.

  63. samaha Says:

    Whoa! Wait a minute – Ali? Rushdie? Sultan?

    I’m sorry, please do not use the words Humanist Muslims with names of people that have denounced god or Islam or have converted.

  64. isis13 Says:

    Samaha: Please forgive us if we do not all the names or histories of the people mentioned. I know I am still learning. Perhaps if you could expand on this in your own fine blog, I could guide people there for additional background information. Thanks.

  65. samaha Says:

    I will ping ya when I do.

    Sorry if my attitude came accross in that reply. I just tend to get very frustrated when these people are considered “humanist Muslims” when they have renounced their religion. Where does that leave our “humanist Muslims” then?

    I, personally, TRY to take the time to verify that a person or source is not biased in his views. I have in the past debated the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and would never even in a million years dream of using Chomsky as a source.

    But we are all human, and even I today made a comment about little green footballs in which I didn’t bother to go to the site prior to passing judgement.

    We all need to learn to be objectionate.

  66. josh43 Says:

    samaha,
    “Whoa! Wait a minute – Ali? Rushdie? Sultan?

    I’m sorry, please do not use the words Humanist Muslims with names of people that have denounced god or Islam or have converted.”

    If the word “Muslims” were to be removed from your comments, could these people be seen as humanist in the more traditional definition of the word?

    And I mean this to be in a positive connotation.

    ********

    Personally, I am not an atheist but can an atheist or someone who has denounced God still be a humanist?

    Can an atheist or someone who has denounced God still spread love around the world and bring good into it?

    Would God allow that person into heaven?

    *********

    Sometimes people pronounce themselves atheists as a natural part of the searching process until they find a religion (religious methodology) that works for them. Many people I know have changed faiths at least once.

  67. samaha Says:

    Josh,

    of course an atheist can be a humanist – they just can’t be Muslim.

    My comment was not meant to be an insult to atheists, rather it was meant to show how these people are not Muslim.

    Now, do I consider these people to be humanist? I’m not that informed about them. I’ve seen Sultana (I believe) make an excellent argument with an Arab imam, but what she was doing was debating. Was she provoking thought and responsiblity from the Arab world? I don’t know but I would guess no.

    IMO, what makes someone a humanist is that they are doing something for humankind that is responsible and selfless. Do these people qualify? I’m not sure, I haven’t seen anything that I would say qualifies them, but that may just be that the media is sensationalizing the wrong things.

  68. samaha Says:

    and I’m not sure about atheists and heaven.

    However, one would pronounce themselves an agnostic if still searching. Atheist by definition means that you know that god does not exist.

  69. Callimachus Says:

    Wonderful post. Impassioned but thoughtful — and helpful.

  70. Claire Says:

    “Isis:
    If you are so inclined, please provide this site with the links to these references on LGF in the future.”

    Will do.

  71. josh43 Says:

    samaha,
    Good points all!

    “Now, do I consider these people to be humanist? I’m not that informed about them. I’ve seen Sultana (I believe) make an excellent argument with an Arab imam, but what she was doing was debating. Was she provoking thought and responsiblity from the Arab world? I don’t know but I would guess no.”

    I think debate is very effective at provoking thought. I think it is one of its primary, if not only functions. Whether individuals in the Arab world were open to these thoughts is probably very individualistic in nature.

    I am unsure what you mean by “responsibility”.

    I think debate and discussion is meant to make people think anew. And I do think they accomplish this. It may be contrary to the concept of submission which I understand is a very prevalent teaching in Islam.

    I think this blog is making me and many others think anew.

    *******

    What I find difficult to understand about submitting to Allah’s will is that there are so may different imam’s opinions regarding the understanding of Allah’s will. Who is one to believe? How does one determine Allah’s will? I have had a good many people tell me that the Koran, et al can only be truly understood by “learned scholars”. Translation from classic Arabic is also no small thing. And even amongst scholars that read the Koran in the literal sense, they do not all agree. ie – the extremist v mainstream, et al.

    *********

    “IMO, what makes someone a humanist is that they are doing something for humankind that is responsible and selfless. Do these people qualify? I’m not sure, I haven’t seen anything that I would say qualifies them, but that may just be that the media is sensationalizing the wrong things.”

    I believe all these people have had fatwas of death issued against them. From my limited exposure to their views, they would seem to be pretty knowledgable about Islam and its different views (having lived it and now left it). It would seem they must have known that speaking out in such a public manner would result in death fatwas issued against them by the extremists.

    This would seem to have been a pretty selfless action. No matter whether one believes their views, risking one’s own death to bring there views out into the open (when they could have lived a quiet, peaceful life by staying silent) would seem to be very selfless and one could even argue responsible.

    I think the word responsible is all relative to who is defining it.

    *********

    “However, one would pronounce themselves an agnostic if still searching. Atheist by definition means that you know that god does not exist.”

    I agree but I think sometimes people (not all) mistakenly call themselves atheists when they really mean they are agnostic. Both start with “a” and sound rather odd. Easy to get mixed up.

    However, I also think sometimes people confuse the cause of their frustration and desire to leave their religion is God’s fault rather than the man made rules that are portrayed as God’s laws. In their confusion, this can result in their pointing the finger at God instead of at the man made rules or methodologies that have caused all the grief and confusion.

    Thus they become and call themselves an atheist.

    To me when someone calls themselves an atheist, it is more a sign that they are searching for a more true understanding of life(and God).

  72. samaha Says:

    Josh, of course debate can stimulate thought and realizations. However, debate was possibly the wrong word, argue may be more fitting and I can’t say for sure, as I am not that familiar with these people beyond knowing that they are critics of Islam, incitement may also fit the bill.

    As a Muslim there is one thing that I know and I know very well. I could be rather succesful monetarily if I were to denounce my religion and “speak up” against it. I’m going to leave this thread with that thought –

    Josh, I am intending to write a post in regards to this subject within the next few days – this reply was turning into a post.

    I was also intending on a post in regards to Allah’s will.

  73. josh43 Says:

    samaha,
    Very good! I look forward to reading it. 🙂

  74. The Glittering Eye » Blog Archive » The Council Has Spoken! Says:

    […] The winning non-Council post was Smart and Final Isis’s post, “Isis’ Guide to Sensible Islam Posting”. I’m very gratified that this eminently sound post (which I nominated) found such favor with the Council. The second place non-Council post was Michael Fumento’s “Covering Iraq: the Modern Way of War Correspondence”. […]

  75. Dean's World Says:

    The Council Has Spoken!

    The Watcher’s Council has announced its picks for the most outstanding posts of the preceding week. The…

  76. Honor to Have Been Nominated… « Smart and Final Isis Says:

    […] I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Watcher’s Concil for taking notice of my small post, Isis’ Guide to Sensible Islam Posting.  Here is their statement: The Watcher’s Council has announced its picks for the most outstanding posts of the preceding week. ….The winning non-Council post was Smart and Final Isis’s post, “Isis’ Guide to Sensible Islam Posting”. I’m very gratified that this eminently sound post (which I nominated) found such favor with the Council. The second place non-Council post was Michael Fumento’s “Covering Iraq: the Modern Way of War Correspondence”. […]

  77. Samaha Says:

    […] “LGF does post the words of lots of Humanist Muslims and applauds their efforts. Ali, Rushdie, Sultan, Phares, the list goes on. You can’t say they never do.” […]

  78. samaha Says:

    Done – sorry it took so long 😦

    http://samaha.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/37/

  79. ShrinkWrapped Says:

    The Council Has Spoken …

    The winning Council post was Dymphna’s examination of a very difficult court case, Female Genital Mutilation in Georgia: Who is the Perp? (Her follow-up is here.) In second place was You Would Weep, posted by Callimachus, which describes a century’s

  80. Wael Kfoury Says:

    arabic chat

    Interesting post. I came across this blog by accident, but it was a good accident. I have now bookmarked your blog for future use. Best wishes. Wael Kfoury.

  81. Electric Venom » Blog Archive » It’s Always and Honor To Be Nominated Says:

    […] the nominees that were voted on. Spewed by: Venomous Kate in Blog Bites, War Bites at 7:24 pm More like this:»It’s An Honor»It’s An Honor Killing, YourHonor»Sure, Blame The Victim Send Trackback Trackback URL for this post: http://www.electricvenom.com/2006/11/08/its-always-and-honor-to-be-nominated/trackback/ […]

  82. Right Wing Nut House » THE COUNCIL HAS SPOKEN Says:

    […] Coming in first in the non Council category was “Isis’ Guide to Sensible Islam Posting” from Smart and Final Isis. […]

  83. Maksim-Smelchak Says:

    Hi Everyone,

    I don’t think the Isis Guide is bad, per se, but I think it very much takes a hypocritical Edward Said approach to evaluating other cultures, which is to say that it advocates the values of cultural relativism.

    And cultural relativism basically throughs out the baby with the bathwater. It is an idea with decent intentions, but most secular progressives tend to throw out any rational, logic and fair judgment of the “other” out when using the concept. It is very important that we still retain a sense of right and wrong… even if it is for an “other.”

    *** Why can’t a Westerner read the Koran and make a fair judgment based upon what he or she has read? ***

    *** Isn’t this what the most progressive of Jihadists do? At best, take a surface reading of Western culture and make a judgment? ***

    I’d make the supposition that the average Jihadist / Islamist / extreme fundamentalist or whatever label you want to slap on them doesn’t even bother to do that… they take their learning from a Madrassah and then seek to kill Westerners, apostates, women out of line and whoever else doesn’t strictly conform to their very narrow view of the world.

    *** Also, at one point, are we allowed to consider the collected acts of “individuals” to be endemic of a greater culture? ***

    Statistics are a funny game, but at some point, we make value decisions about numbers and then those same numbers become significant to us as they affect us in a meaningful way.

    I would submit that there are two major issues facing Islam from the viewpoint of a Western victim of Islamic Religious oppression:

    1. The Jihadist movement, which boils dfown to Religious Imperialism and Colonial Expansion into the West. I call it Colonial Expansion into the West, because many of the folks coming have openly declared that they have no intention to seek or emulate the values of the West. They are coming to impose Sharia law on us.

    2. The lack of serious and significant protest against the Jihadist movement. It’s simply not happening. I can’t blame people who are afraid that their local dicatators, autocrats, ayatollahs, etc. will kill them if they assemble and protest, but what about those Muslims who live in the West where assembly and protest are both legal and considered a right for all? Why don’t the Muslims of Dearborne, Michigan take to the streets to protest genocide bombers (often called suicuide bombers by the media)? Why can’t they make a distinctions between a group that intentionally murders anyone it can inlcuding other Arabs and Persians (HAMAS, FATAH, HEZBOLLAH, etc.) and a group that unintentionally kills those being used as human shields and dupes (the IDF)? The simple answer is that either the greater Muslim masses are afraid to protest (Families back home being held hostage, afraid of assassin squads abraad in their new homes, etc.) OR… they feel that those immoral practices are somehow justified and thus they acquire the support of those same Muslim masses.

    ——

    While I personally think that you, Isis, make an excellent point here:

    “Not many LGF readers have exposure to the Islamic world, have read the Koran, or know a Muslim with whom they may ask about subtleties in religious practice. Focusing on a small aspect of faith, magnifying its importance, presenting it as fact, and failing to recognize that the aspect is rejected by most Muslims does Islam an injustice. It diminishes LGF still further.”

    I wonder if this is an assumption that youve made or a studied fact you’ve researched.

    I wonder how many LGF readers have had exposure to the Islamic world.

    I have. I’ve had plenty of exposure… lived among Muslims, chatted with them, discussed theology witht hem… even had my sister date a Muslim fellow. I also speak Arabic although admittedly stuntingly. I see them everyday on public transport… even share a polite Salaam Alikuum with them. My local gas station is owned by Persians (Iranians) and my favorite coffee house in San Francisco is owned by a Palestinian-Arab fellow originally from Jerusalem.

    In other words, I don’t think I’m ignorant of the Muslim “other.”

    However, I don’t think it takes all of those experiences to make a fair and impartial judgment based upon experience and a person’s own values system.

    I really think that you are discounting LGF readers. Sure, there are some folks who aren’t as experienced with Muslims as others, but they all have had some visceral experience that makes them care enough to aprticipate there, whether 9-11, Afghanistan, Lebabon, Iraq, Saudi arabia, Kuwait or others. Something prompted them to care. Otherwise they wouldn’t give adamn like most people don’t. They’d deal with their visceral life in front of them and ignore foreign relations, diplomacy and all of that ballyhoo which doesn’t affect the common man on his way to work and then back home.

    “Neither does reading the Koran. Proper knowledge of the faith requires interaction and instruction from practicing, learned Muslims. Also, expand the reading list to include books from actual Islamic scholars, so you get actual interpretations of Islamic faith from living, breathing Muslims. Here are some suggestions – and Ali Eteraz probably has more worthy ones.”

    Proper knowledge of a faith?

    Proper knowledge of a faith is something that only a beleiver of that faith really has. The rest of us see that faith from an outside viewpoint, no matter how educated and experienced that viewpoint is.

    I agree that it is important that one cosults multiple viewpoints when seriously studying a subject, but on the other hand:

    *** How much does the parent of a murdered Israeli kindergartener really need to know to pass judgment on the crazies indicriminately intentionally launching rockets at them, innocents and combatants alike? ***

    I think that that hypothetical Israeli has plenty of experience and a sufficient vantage point to make a qualified moral judgment on that issue. They don’t need to interact with and receive instruction from practicing, learned Muslims… especially not the ones who launched the rockets.

    Please don’t froget that all of those terrorists in HAMAS, MEZBOLLAH and FATAH colors are overhwelmingly practicing, learned Muslims.

    We don’t like what they’ve practiced or learned, but they’re studying the same stuff that a more peaceful Muslim in the West is. The Koran and the Hadiths don’t change dpendent on whether the reader beleives that the murder of Westerners is a virtue or not. Their interpetation.. sure, but the source material doesn’t change.

    ——

    Lastly, in my rambling response to your post, I would love to see more humanist Muslims arise and to see their voices heard, but…

    Much of that depends on the West whose media agencies tout murderers as “moderate Muslims” when much more humainst ones exist. Protest against the BBC, Reuters, AP and other to really rperesent the humanists you’ve mentioned as the “true moderates.”

    And a big portion of that responsibility depends on those humanists you’ve mentioned… they need to stand up and be heard despite the risks. That’s how change happens, when someone takes achange and speaks up.

    That doesn’t ahppen when we see the people of Dearborne, Michigan gather and assemble to support HEZBOLLAH, HAMAS, FATAH and never bothers to doa thing for the humanists you’ve mentioned.

    ——

    Good luck with your studies and please don’t idealize anyone into a “noble savage.” Please hold folks responsible for their actions.

    Shalom Aleichem and Salaam Alikuum,
    Maksim-Smelchak.

  84. Maksim-Smelchak Says:

    Hi Isis,

    Sorry for all of the typos in my other post… wrote it quickly and from the heart without proofreading.

    One last point:

    “4) Avoid the use of derogatory terms when discussing Islam, Mohammed and Muslims.”

    *** Why not just go all the way and instead of saying “avoid,” just say “DON’T?” ***

    Namecalling doesn’t help real discussion. Calling a spade a spade is much different from using racial epithets, making strawman arguments or simply getting personal.

    Shalom,
    Maksim-Smelchak.

  85. abuTrevor Says:

    Hello Isis,

    I agree with much that you say in this article, but there are one or two points that I would take issue with.

    The first one of these is Taqquia. Origionaly, it is, of course, the concealment of one’s true beliefs by Shi’a Muslims. You quote Dean Esmay:-

    “Furthermore, Taqqiya is actually rejected by a majority of Muslims worldwide.”

    This is true, but Dean fails to point out that this “majority of Muslims worldwide” is the Sunnis who have historically persecuted the Shia’a.

    However, when the term “Taqqiya” is used by critics of Islam, they are not saying that Muslims always lie, only that they may lie in defence of their faith.

    This is not an Islamophobic fanasy; on more than one occaision Muhammed gave permission to his folloowers to lie. I am currently reading “The Life of Mohammed” by ibn Ishaq and on p519 Al Hajjaj bin ‘Ilat al-Sulami asks for, and is given, permisson by the Prophet to lie solely in order to recover money he was owed in Makkah.

    In the “reliance of the Taveller”, the classic manual of (Shafi’ite) Islamic Law, it says in section r8.2:-

    “When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie id attaining the goal is permissable.”

    Protecting Islam and/or Muslims would, presumably, be a permissible goal.

    It’s all very well looking at centuries old texts, but do the Muslims of today actally follow these directives? How about the following statements:-

    Islam is a religion of Peace – while is would be wrong to say that Islam is entirely a religion of jihad, this is a fib.

    Islam means “Peace” – no, Islam means submission (to the will of God); salaam means peace.

    I quite understand that some Muslims might wish to protect their religion and fellow Muslims in the wake of recent terrorists attacks in the west, but it’s still lying.

    The following is an example of deception (“kitman”) rather than lying. Just over two weeks after the 7/7 bombings in London, the British Muslim Forum issued a fatwa condemning the use of violence and saying that suicide bombing was vehemently prohibited (full text at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4697365.stm).

    The fatwah quotes from the Qur’an 5:32 as follows:-

    “Whoever kills a human being, then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Koran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32).

    However, if you were to check an online tranlation you would find that the verse is from a particularly anti-Jewish part of the Qur’an and that what it actually says is:-

    “On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. ”

    It appears that this ruling is specifically for the Jews. The British Muslim Forum has nearly 300 Mosques affiliated to it and the fatwa was approved by over 500 British Muslim religious leaders and scholars,

    That’s enogh for one post; I’ll stop now. In your article you mention how the “Rightosphere longs for a none-hateful Muslim presence”. well, I also have ben looking with for moderate (or humanist) muslims on the web. I’m very pleased to find your blog and hope to comment further on this and other articles.

    Regards,
    abuTreor

  86. samaha Says:

    >>I would submit that there are two major issues facing Islam from the viewpoint of a Western victim of Islamic Religious oppression:

    wha? just how are you a victim of Islamic religious oppresion?

    >>They are coming to impose Sharia law on us.

    show me the proof.

    >>genocide bombers?

    i’m not going to debate suicide bombers. i’ll be the first to condemn that shit, as will the vast majority of western muslims, but dude, i can’t take you seriously when you make a statement of “genocide bombers”. point one – even in israel where suicide bombers happen on a more regular basis upon non-muslims – it does not constitute the use of the word genocide bomber. you can not even use the term genocide upon israel even though they kill 3 times more palis then palis kill israelis. secondly, suicide bombing takes place upon muslims that don’t follow the same political make-up of another group – so are you trying to say that they are commiting self-genocide – i think we got a new word there.

    >>*** How much does the parent of a murdered Israeli kindergartener really need to know to pass judgment on the crazies indicriminately intentionally launching rockets at them, innocents and combatants alike? ***

    How much does the parent of a murdered Muslim kindergardner really need to know to pass judgement on the crazies indiscriminantly intentionally launching rockets at them, innocents and combatants alike?

    Statement goes both ways dude.

    Let me give you a little insight – I am Bosnian. I had family that was killed in the Bosnian war. I still say that even though we were outarmed, outtanked, outbombed, we still commited grave injustices upon the Serbs, it was a war. I still do not say that all serbs are “evil”. I would never say that Serbs would deserve to live like Palis.

    Think about it.

    Next, before you go getting all upset. I am a Muslim and I do believe in a two state solution, one that does not include a right of return. One that would end up leaving the larger settlement blocks to Israel. One that would mean complete solidarity for Palestinians.

    I am disappointed in the election of Hamas. I have always condemned suicide bombers. I also believe that Arabs need to face realities in regards to the situation. As much as I want compensation for the Palestinian refugees created by the conflict, I also want compensation for the over 750,000 Jews that were exiled from Arab lands after the creation of Israel.

    There are many Western Muslims that feel this way. I’ve talked to Palestinian Muslims that have very similar to say.

    It’s not that we don’t want to get up and shout, but honestly, the Muslim community is not all that organized. We’re barely able to keep our own communities going. We’re so busy trying to establish ourselves that it is hard to go beyond that.

    I for one believe that we should stand up and have some demonstrations, but to on the fly be able to put one together will be tough. Hopefully we will see some strides. I for one am going to try and have just joined a local Chicago area activist organization. I hope that it will be all that I hope from it, too soon to tell though.

    So, what I want to say is that there are Muslims out there who try. It gets very tiring to do things, to speak up, to try to make a difference and then get brought down by the likes of people who insist on saying things like “genocide bombers”, “they want to bring sharia here” and even worse things like “you’re just practicing taqiya”. To some people, it just doesn’t matter and those people would rather not see Muslims stand up, don’t want reasonable, rational debate as it doesn’t serve their agenda.

    Again, Isis, thank you so much for this post and for your dedication to rational discussion and your devotion to the truth and to stopping what I like to call “the hate campaign”. It is people like you that make me say, it is all worth it. And not “well, I know what is in my heart” – that’s the easy route that we tend to take. I took it for years.

  87. isis13 Says:

    Maksim-Smelchak: You are obviously an individual of great learning and intelligence. I, myself, have a decent IQ — high enough to get by as a scientist and writer, but not so high that I have lost a grasp of common sense (unlike many of my colleagues). 🙂

    I think you over-read my intent. Mine simply was to elevate the level of civil discourse in discussing Islam. I think that embracing blind anti-Islamic hatred plays into the hands of terrorists, and that the smarter tactic is supporting Humanist Muslims. And we can’t do that when continuously posting “Islam is a death cult, so let’s bomb Mecca with a nuke and convert every rag-head”.

    I consider no Muslim a “noble savage”. All are individuals, to be judged as such. I do not care much for the whining complainers of CAIR who see anti-Muslim prejudice at every turn. Frankly, however, after witnessing the corrosion of discourse regarding Muslims in the Rightosphere, I actually think now that they may have a point.

    There are many Humanist Muslims coming into my acquaintance. Ali Eteraz, Samaha, Yursil, Fahad — and others I am sure still to meet on this electronic voyage. I cannot hope to seriously debate the fine points of the Qu’ran, the Shariat, Hadith, and other Islamic texts/dogmas/and beliefs. However, I hope to be able to direct others wanting to learn more about the peace-oriented, terror-deriding passages that are often neglected to be mentioned by Christian scholars of Islam.

    As a scientist, I cannot fathom the logic of turning to a Christian to give me an assessment of Islamic writings. It would be like asking a medical doctor an opinion on geology. The doctor would sound knowledgeable and intelligent, but the geologic sciences are a specialty requiring study and important aspects would be missed.

    This site is to help the Rightosphere members learn the Islam basics from Muslims, to direct members of the Rightosphere to Humanist Muslims, and to support the beginning of Humanist Muslim activism (As best as I am able, given my humble abilities and time limitations). For those who want to engage in weighty debates about the meaning of Islamic writings, I am sure one of our commentators is sure to be able to supply much better answers than I. I make no claim to being a religious scholar. However, I want to amplify the Humanist Muslim view as much as possible, and make it known to the Rightosphere.

    This site is also a place for the Rightosphere to give voice to rational concerns about Muslims. Rational concerns. And this is a place for peace-loving Muslims to respond without fear of insult. The dialog has just started. Please join us, as there is much work to do.

  88. Maksim-Smelchak Says:

    Hi Samaha,

    [[[wha? just how are you a victim of Islamic religious oppression?]]]

    Would you agree that anyone who lost relatives and/or friends during 9/11 is a victim of Islamic religious oppression?

    Do the 9/11 bombers count as oppressors of the Islamic religious persuasion since they all were Muslims and their snuff films proclaim that their act of murder was done for religious purposes?

    Would you agree that anyone who lost relatives and/or friends to “Iraqi sectarian violence” is a victim of Islamic religious oppression?

    [[[>>They are coming to impose Sharia law on us.]]]
    [[[show me the proof.]]]

    I don’t think it would be good for me to show you. I think it would be better for you to “discover” it for yourself.

    Here’s a lead… please start researching the statements of CAIR leaders in the USA and their counterparts in the UK (MPAC) and elsewhere. I don’t think it will take you long to find that one of their collective avowed goals is to impose Sharia law on the Western nations. Osama bin Laden and many al Qaeda officials and other officials in Jihadist organizations similar to al Qaeda have made analogous statements.

    [[[>>genocide bombers?]]]
    [[[i’m not going to debate suicide bombers. i’ll be the first to condemn that shit, as will the vast majority of western muslims, but dude, i can’t take you seriously when you make a statement of “genocide bombers”. ]]]

    Thanks. Glad to hear you condemn that barbaric practice.

    *** Who do you think deserves out sympathies more, the bomber or the victims of the bomber? ***

    That’s why I prefer the term “genocide bomber” to “suicide bomber.” Based upon the statements of a plurality of “genocide bombers,” I can say that the most common goals found in films made by the aforementioned are to commit genocide upon their victims… to kill them all.

    *** If such bombers declare genocide to be their goal, can I take them at face value? ***

    I also feel that the media unfairly gives press time and attention to the bombers instead of their victims, who are the ones who truly deserve our compassion and understanding… not an expose why someone has been duped into murdering themselves to get attention. The practice of suicide to get media headlines and/or commit genocide upon one’s enemies shouldn’t get subtle, understated “Atta boys” from the media or anyone else.

    [[[point one – even in israel where suicide bombers happen on a more regular basis upon non-muslims – it does not constitute the use of the word genocide bomber. you can not even use the term genocide upon israel even though they kill 3 times more palis then palis kill israelis.]]]

    *** In Israel, bombings happen on a more regular basis upon non-Muslims? Huh? ***

    *** Are you counting the civil war occurring between Palestinian-Arabs to come to this conclusion? The murder of so-called “collaborators?” And political opponents? ***

    [[[secondly, suicide bombing takes place upon muslims that don’t follow the same political make-up of another group – so are you trying to say that they are commiting self-genocide – i think we got a new word there.]]]

    OK. Agreed. I agree that Muslims and particularly Palestinian-Arabs have been committing genocide upon each other… that’s what the civil war between HAMAS, FATAH, ISLAMIC JIHAD, etc. is all about.

    And, yes, when you try to kill off an entire group of people, that’s genocide. It can be for a variety of reasons including national, ethnic, religious, etc. reasons. I have included a link so that you can further learn about the term.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

    [[[>>*** How much does the parent of a murdered Israeli kindergartener really need to know to pass judgment on the crazies indicriminately intentionally launching rockets at them, innocents and combatants alike? ***]]]
    [[[How much does the parent of a murdered Muslim kindergardner really need to know to pass judgement on the crazies indiscriminantly intentionally launching rockets at them, innocents and combatants alike? Statement goes both ways dude.]]]

    Sure, the statement goes both ways… right up until the point you put it in context.

    *** Do you think that there is any difference in what the philosophies of what the kindergarteners are taught and what their parents believe? ***

    The death ofa kindergartner is a travesty either way, but in one society, you see children being protected and taught to seek peace and in the other you see children used as human shields and taught daily to seek the blood of the “enemy.”

    There are numerous studies of the school textbooks of Palestinian-Arab and Palestinian-Jews, also called the Israelis these days, that help to outline these differences so that you can figure out which group is giving what sort of teaching to their kindergarteners.

    Intent is important under the law and thus under justice. And I know plenty enough about Islamic law to know that Islamic law, much like Western laws based on Judeo-Christian philosophy makes a distinction between death with or without intent.

    When someone becomes dead, if the killer did it intentionally, we call it murder… if the death is unintentional, we call it killing, unintentional manslaughter or something else to distinguish it from murder. This distinction generally doesn’t matter to the surviving relatives of a dead person, but it should matter to anyone concerned with ethics, morality and being able to use one’s learning to determine the differences between right and wrong.

    [[[Let me give you a little insight – I am Bosnian. I had family that was killed in the Bosnian war. I still say that even though we were outarmed, outtanked, outbombed, we still commited grave injustices upon the Serbs, it was a war.]]]

    Let me give you a little insight, I was in the USAF at the time when the West picked sides in that civil war. I remember it well and am well versed with the issues. I wrote a number of position papers on that war and have read several dozen volumes on the history of Yugoslavia, Tito, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and the rest of the area. I’m still not an “expert,” but I am educated and/or familiar with many of the issues. You’re not telling me anything I don’t know or haven’t heard of.

    What I am hearing is that you left to live in the USA. On one hand, Good for you; on the other hand, one of the primary factors that kill nascent nations is “intellectual outflocking” or when people of learning and means leave a country so that the majority of people left are fanatics who achieved their majority through error or the poor and destitute who had no choice. This is largely the story of the Palestinian-Arabs, the Lebanese and so many other countries in turmoil.

    My guess is that Bosnia could use someone of your means to rebuild and form a nations based on humanitarian Islam. But instead, you’re in the States if I heard you correctly. Maybe you’ll return eventually to help your nation of origin prosper.

    [[[ I still do not say that all serbs are “evil”. I would never say that Serbs would deserve to live like Palis.]]]

    I wouldn’t say that either… and agree with both of your statements.

    [[[Think about it.]]]

    I have many times. I would encourage you to also think about it.

    [[[Next, before you go getting all upset.]]]

    You don’t know me and you have NO idea what does or does not upset me. I have thicker skin than you seem to have presupposed.

    [[[ I am a Muslim and I do believe in a two state solution, one that does not include a right of return. One that would end up leaving the larger settlement blocks to Israel.]]]

    The existing Palestinian-Arab “right of return” doesn’t allow for allocating the “larger settlement blocks” to Israel. In fact, both the “FATAH, HAMS & PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY “rights of return” don’t account for Israel’s existence except as a historical footnote.

    [[[One that would mean complete solidarity for Palestinians.]]]

    I wish that the Palestinian-Arabs believed in solidarity with each other.

    [[[I am disappointed in the election of Hamas. I have always condemned suicide bombers. I also believe that Arabs need to face realities in regards to the situation.]]]

    Agreed on all accounts.

    [[[As much as I want compensation for the Palestinian refugees created by the conflict, I also want compensation for the over 750,000 Jews that were exiled from Arab lands after the creation of Israel.]]]

    Agreed again.

    *** Do you consider UNRWA to be compensation for the Palestinian-Arab refugees? ***

    *** Do you know whether Israel has provided for Palestinian-Arab refugees? ***

    [[[There are many Western Muslims that feel this way. I’ve talked to Palestinian Muslims that have very similar to say.]]]

    I agree and have also that that experience… unfortunately, most of those “Western-oriented” Muslims have been… well, oriented in the West… not living in their countries of origin. It’s easy to think such things when you have “freedom of speech” and don’t have your life threatened everyday by mafiosa type thugs.

    [[[It’s not that we don’t want to get up and shout, but honestly, the Muslim community is not all that organized. We’re barely able to keep our own communities going. We’re so busy trying to establish ourselves that it is hard to go beyond that.]]]

    Agreed. Regardless, where there is a will, there is a way. I’m more interested in hearing about what you have done than the reasons for things you haven’t done.

    [[[I for one believe that we should stand up and have some demonstrations, but to on the fly be able to put one together will be tough. Hopefully we will see some strides.]]]

    Good.

    [[[I for one am going to try and have just joined a local Chicago area activist organization. I hope that it will be all that I hope from it, too soon to tell though.]]]

    Let me know and I’ll tout your event… after I’ve looked over the agenda. Trust but verify.

    I’d bet that Isis will give you a hand as well.

    [[[So, what I want to say is that there are Muslims out there who try. It gets very tiring to do things, to speak up, to try to make a difference and then get brought down by the likes of people who insist on saying things like “genocide bombers”, “they want to bring sharia here” and even worse things like “you’re just practicing taqiya”. ]]]

    Trying counts, but “getting it done” counts a lot more.

    I’m sorry that you’re tired of encountering opposition to your ambitions, whether legitimate or not. Unfortunately, that’s life and it’s not fair.

    Your job, if you really believe in your cause, is to overcome all of those obstacles, discount your detractors and pursue your goal relentlessly. Coming up with lists of reasons why you are discouraged will most likely not help you further you goal.

    I’ve explained why I prefer the term “genocide bomber” to “suicide bomber” (It focuses on the victims rather than the murderer and calls out the goals of the bomber – genocide) and also given you a clue as to why I take CAIR officials and other like them seriously when they announce that their goals are to impose SHARIA on their places of residence. I didn’t use the term TAQIYA although I’m familiar with it.

    *** What does TAQIYA mean to you? ***

    [[[To some people, it just doesn’t matter and those people would rather not see Muslims stand up, don’t want reasonable, rational debate as it doesn’t serve their agenda.]]]

    *** Do you think that I would rather not see Muslims stand up? ***

    *** Do you know what my agenda is, let alone what serves or doesn’t serve my agenda? ***

    I would recommend you just come out and ask me what my agenda is rather than making potentially erroneous assumptions about what I think or don’t think.

    ——

    Good luck with organizing to Muslim community in your area.

    Shalom,
    Maksim-Smelchak.

  89. Maksim-Smelchak Says:

    Hi Isis,

    Sorry if I overread you intent.

    Thanks for the reply. It was appreciated.

    Shalom,
    Maksim-Smelchak.

  90. samaha Says:

    Shalom Maksim,

    No. I don’t consider that anyone who lost family or friends is a victim of “Islamic religious oppression”. I also don’t consider the excuse that OBL used when he said it was because of US funding Israelis. They were Muslims, I’m sure that they thought what they were doing was for Allah. It wasn’t about spreading Islam and opperessing other religions. Their reasoning was that this was self-defense for American oppression on them. What they did was wrong and I’m sickened by it, but I can’t let you say that this was about religious oppression – let’s be honest about that.

    I will say that those people and all Americans, myself included were victims of Muslim terrorists.

    2. Sorry, even if a few leaders want to see sharia imposed, the greater Muslim community does not want it. Look into what happened in Canada. One leader tried to pass sharia based courts for Muslims and the Muslims fought against it.

    3. I’m dropping the genocide bombers from this argument. It’s a non-argument and it is counter productive. It is to the detriment of other genocides that have taken place when you use the term genocide liberally like this. Genocide will lose its meaning if you continue down this road. That’s the only point I will make in this regard as I will not assist you any longer in diminishing genocidal atrocities that have taken place in the world. Wishful thinking doesn’t count for action, does it?

    4. ALL children are innocent and I will not continue down this road for the same reason as number 3.

    5. Correction. I am a Bosnian American, so is my husband. We were both born here and all of our children were born here. This year was the first time our 14 year old, 10 year old and 4 year old have seen Bosnia. This is the first time I’ve been back since the war. In reality I am an American, in heart a Bosnian.

    Still, what do you care where I choose to live whether born here or not. Bosnia is a nation based on humanitarian Islam, moreso it is a predominantly secular country and the people that we call Bosnian Muslims are mostly agnostic or atheist and non-practicing.

    I’m sure I know where you will head next with this line….

    6. Prior to the election of Hamas, Abbas was talking about a negotiated “right of return” which would be a token gesture by Israel in the peace agreement. In polls, 98% of Palestinians say that they would not return to their homes in Israel anyway. So right of return is and has been quite some time now a non-issue. Israel should have played ball with Abbas when they had the chance, when Palestinian spirits and hopes were high for a negotiated peace deal.

    7. No, I do not consider any aide that has been given to Palestinian as a result of their becoming refugees to be compensation. Either return their homes or compensate them for it.

    8. I’m sorry, but no, while I do believe that I have a responsiblity to my country and to my religion by standing up against the wrongs commited in my religions name, I do not feel that my standing up against them should be demanded of me or conditional upon the way you and your like speak of Muslims. It is also just not feasible nor possible to commit the types of demonstrations that you would like to see.

    Demonstrations require permits and planning.

    In the end when Muslims are standing up and speaking out here in the US (which we are) it will go ignored or it will be – well those are US Muslims. We just can’t trust Muslims whatsoever because they are lying.

    blah blah blah

  91. Maksim-Smelchak Says:

    Hi Samaha,

    [[[1. They were Muslims, I’m sure that they thought what they were doing was for Allah.]]]

    Agreed.

    [[[It wasn’t about spreading Islam and oppressing other religions. Their reasoning was that this was self-defense for American oppression on them.]]]

    The self-defense reasoning wasn’t the whole argument nor even the main emphasis. Spreading Islam through the subjugation of other religion is most definitely the agenda of folks like AL QAEDA, HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, FATAH and other like-minded organizations.

    [[[What they did was wrong and I’m sickened by it, but I can’t let you say that this was about religious oppression – let’s be honest about that.]]]

    I agree with your call for honesty, but I think you should start taking the Jihadists at face value for what they actually say. When they say that they want Islam to rule the world and the beleivers of other religions to become a subjugated minority (dhimmi), I believe them.

    [[[ I will say that those people and all Americans, myself included were victims of Muslim terrorists.]]]

    Agreed.

    [[[2. Sorry, even if a few leaders want to see Sharia imposed, the greater Muslim community does not want it.]]]

    A few? The greater Muslim community?

    I haven’t seen evidence of either. I see far more than a few Muslim leaders calling for Sharia to be imposed and that’s of Muslim leaders here and abroad. I’m not sure about your home of Bosnia. Bosnia doesn’t get much press or get mentioned in many studies. Maybe Bosnia is different.

    Do you have any evidence or research leads for me regarding your supposition that the greater majority of Muslims don’t want Sharia imposed upon Western states.

    Reporters from the Czech Republic, among others, has done a number of independent investigative studies of their Muslim populations and found that the majority of those folks did indeeed want Sharia law imposed in the Czech Republic. That’s one example. The Muslim community in Los Angeles has been polled many times with the majority of the results showing that they also want Sharia law imposed in the US.

    [[[Look into what happened in Canada. One leader tried to pass sharia based courts for Muslims and the Muslims fought against it.]]]

    …some Muslims fought against it and…

    Some Muslims fought vehemently for it.

    I haven’t seen any studies that the group that fought against the imposition of Sharia law in Canada were anything but a very limited minority of the Canadian Muslim community.

    Do you have information otherwise?

    [[[3. I’m dropping the genocide bombers from this argument. It’s a non-argument and it is counter productive. It is to the detriment of other genocides that have taken place when you use the term genocide liberally like this.]]]

    It seems as if genocides only count after the fact for you. A genocide in the making doesn’t seem to count.

    And I don’t feel it’s a non-issue. I politely disagree with you. And I’m tired of those crazy bombers being feted by the media rather than their victims. If you’re comfortable with the term “suicide bomber” that diminishes the true victims of that crime, that’s your perogative. I strongly feel differently.

    And I think it’s very productive to call a problem by its name rather than dance around it and never identify the problem for what it is. Genocide bombers very specifically advocate and practice a policy of genocide. They openly proclaim that. I don’t see fit to reinterpret their words to what I think they should be rather than what they are actually saying. Please, watch some “shahada” videos and see what you think.

    [[[ Bosnia is a nation based on humanitarian Islam, more so it is a predominantly secular country and the people that we call Bosnian Muslims are mostly agnostic or atheist and non-practicing.]]]

    Do you have any recommendations for learning more about the Bosnia of humanitarian Islam? Books, Internet sites, etc.?

    Most of my learning focussed on the war and not the Bosnia that came later.

    [[[6. Prior to the election of Hamas, Abbas was talking about a negotiated “right of return” which would be a token gesture by Israel in the peace agreement.]]]

    Abbas talks out of two sides of his mouth… he did that when he worked for Arafat and never lost the habit. He speaks in contradictions as often as does not.

    I don’t trust anything that Abbas does until I see results. And so far, he hasn’t shown much of a commitment to anything but his own self-enrichment… much like Arafat. He has consistently chosen bombs and bullets over social welfare funding while being the nominal leader of the Palestinian Authority.

    [[[In polls, 98% of Palestinians say that they would not return to their homes in Israel anyway.]]]

    I would like to see more of these polls.

    Do you have any sources or leads to sources for me?

    I have seen a number of polls conducted in the territories occupied by the Palestinian Authority and have never seen results like the ones you’ve mentioned.

    [[[So right of return is and has been quite some time now a non-issue.]]]

    The “right of return” is very much an issue for HAMAS and they currently control more of the Palestinian Authority than Abbas.

    [[[Israel should have played ball with Abbas when they had the chance, when Palestinian spirits and hopes were high for a negotiated peace deal.]]]

    When were Palestinian spirits and hopes were high for a negotiated peace deal?

    I haven’t seen much enthusiam among that community for real negocation, only demands that don’t correspond to previously agreed upon peace brokerage. I still have yet to see the Palestinian Authority seriously deal with the issue of rockets attacks into Israel. I fact, I’ve seenc onsiderable evidence that the Palestinian Authority has enabled rocket attacks into Israel rather than otherwise.

    [[[7. No, I do not consider any aide that has been given to Palestinian as a result of their becoming refugees to be compensation. Either return their homes or compensate them for it.]]]

    Aide is a person. Aid is help.

    UNRWA has been paying for the Palestinian refugees and their descendants for decades now… on the world’s bill. Jewish refugees haven’t seen a penny from the UN. For that matter, UNRWA gives more to the Palestinian-Arab refugees than all other refugees in the world combined.

    *** Do you know whether Israel has provided for Palestinian-Arab refugees? ***

    [[[8. I’m sorry, but no, while I do believe that I have a responsiblity to my country and to my religion by standing up against the wrongs commited in my religions name, I do not feel that my standing up against them should be demanded of me or conditional upon the way you and your like speak of Muslims.]]]

    I’m not demanding it of you and I don’t think that I’ve established conditions for you speaking your mind.

    I would love to see your opinions become the norm for Muslims communities around the world, but I would never force you to do so.
    And I have nothing against Mulsism or Islams based on that identity, despite what appears to be your possible attempt to say otherwise:
    “…the way you and your like speak of Muslims.”

    [[[It is also just not feasible nor possible to commit the types of demonstrations that you would like to see. Demonstrations require permits and planning.]]]

    I don’t expect you to commit to the types of demonstrations that both you and I would like to see. I realize that demonstrations require permits and planning.

    I wouldn’t expect you to do more unless you really believed in your ideas in humanistic Islam and wanted to combine action with idea.

    If not, that’s what so many others are doing… talking a lot and actually doing very little. I hope for more.

    [[[In the end when Muslims are standing up and speaking out here in the US (which we are) it will go ignored or it will be – well those are US Muslims. We just can’t trust Muslims whatsoever because they are lying. blah blah blah]]]

    That’s a pretty bad case of pessimism you have.

    Your vision of humanistic Islam becoming the norm will certainly never come to pass with that sort of attitude.

    I don’t agree with your statement that Muslims can’t be trusted. I think that your assertion that “We just can’t trust Muslims whatsoever because they are lying” is erroneous and poorly thought out.

    What I do think is that Muslims like every and any other group out there should be looked at with caution and care until the community proves otherwise. What I see coming out of organizations like CAIR, MPAC, HAMAS, FATAH, HEZBOLLAH, AL QAEDA and many other has nt been encouraging and that’s unfortunately where so much attention has been placed by the media.

    If you know of groups you’d rather be promoted that better represent your ideas about humanistic Islam, please share them with me and others and we can do our part to share them with others.

    As previously mentioned, I’d be happy to tout better Muslim venues than the Jihad gang if such groups come to my attention. I’ll research those groups, but ultimately the onus of responsibility for promoting such groups should belong to those groups and the communities they represent… in this case, the Muslim community.

    It’s people like you and others who are like-minded who have the ability to significantly remove attention from the Jihad gamg and move it to more humanistic Islamic groups.

    Good luck with organizing your local Muslim community.

    Shalom,
    Maksim-Smelchak.

  92. Red Tulips Says:

    Isis:

    Here is where what you wrote is unfair: Christianity does have its problems, and in fact there are the verses in the bible that cause problems!

    I don’t apologize for Christianity or Judaism. I do not believe these religions inherently peaceful. There are black marks in the past of these religions, as well as Islam.

    Of course there are good Muslims out there doing good work. As I said, I highlight that in my blog and do NOT only post the bad. But your reasoning about Robert Spencer is wrong: he directly quotes from the Koran, which yes I have read, and I don’t believe he is quoting unfairly. There have been many exchanges between him and Esmay, with Spencer clearly having the intellectual upper hand.

    Islam, at its core, plagiarizes and rewrites Judaism, just as Christianity does. That is the core problem I take issue with about it. But that’s not a Muslim’s fault, that is Muhammad’s fault.

    Despite what I believe to be the inexcusable actions on Muhammad’s part, Jews and Muslims have been able to live together peacefully in the past, just as unquestionably Jews and Christians are able to currently. (I should note that those who put together the Christian bible did much of the same thing Muhammad did)

    So to sum this up, I don’t see what’s wrong to trot out bible/Quranic (Koranic, depends on the spelling) verses to show the peacefulness or lack thereof of any religion.

    Islam has serious issues it needs to address, and it needs a reformation. Even Islamic scholars such as Reza Aslan, hardly an apostate or anti-Muslim, have said as much!

    Again, thinking that Islam has problems at its core does not mean that all Muslims are the enemy, doesn’t mean the religion needs to be done away with, or anything of the sort.

  93. Claire Says:

    Here’s one on LGF today:

    Jamal Miftah:
    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23480_Why_We_Rarely_Hear_from_Moderate_Muslims#comments

    He spoke out- look what happened to him.

  94. isis13 Says:

    Claire: Thanks for the heads-up. This matter is being throughly addressed by Eteraz.org:
    I read about Jamal Miftah and got upset. Apparently he wrote an article condemning terrorism and suicide bombing in the local paper. As a consequence, he got banned from his mosque.
    As a consequence, the local TV news reported that Mr. Miftahgot kicked out of his “church.”
    Can anyone with connections in the Oklahoman Muslim Community get Mr. Miftah’s contact and introduce him to our site?
    It is imperative that Muslims reach out to him. Why? Otherwise what will happen is that he will be reached out to by no one but the “we hate Islam” crew and this proves that Islam is a closed organism. Then they will encourage him to write more articles on their websites and spin his words to diss Muslims as much as possible.
    Do whatever you can to reach out to Mr. Miftah, there has to be a way. And let him know that we at Eteraz support him 110%.
    http://eteraz.org/story/2006/11/27/123217/15

    I will have updates as they become available.

  95. spottedeagleboy Says:

    In defense of rational observations of individuals actions independent of a larger group: whether it be American-Muslims or American Conservatives-I throw out most of what Conservative WHITE Americans sell in bookstores and other media outlets.

    The alarming ignorance of white conservatives of urban populations and rural non-white populations is to be expected.

    It is easy to dismiss the non-white non-voter or angry entitlement junkee as uneducated and unwilling.

    American Muslims are the target of white conservatives for profit. American Muslims will be the next target of reassignment of blame and tenured class racism, as the mix of race culture becomes largeer and more powerful in politics and economics.

    That ‘Bronze Nation’ out there does not want to be a ‘La Mechan’ or a ‘La Razan’. They want to be home owners, drive new cars and escape political oppression. They will enfuse into American politics religious domination and a tradition of patriarchy.

    Why is this important? Because Islam in America is just too easy to target and accuse. White conservatives sell alarmist agendas to the point they are now crying wolf to an uncaring American public. Enter Al-Queda over unsecured borders, counting on American apathy. Who will be the American Muslim who sounds the alarm? Who will be the American Muslim who bridges the gap between white conservatives? This unique individual will be branded a traitor, no doubt. I know this is confusing, but I have not seen or read any opinions on this developing racial storm, anywhere else.

    I’d guess it’s because what I’m breifly describing here doesn’t exist in the majority of conservatives beliefs.

  96. Claire Says:

    Well, here’s another moderate Muslim, though some are arguing that make-up and champagne dis-qualifies her from being a Muslim.

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23629_Why_We_Rarely_Hear_from_Moderate_Muslims#c0171

    What disturbed me the most about Mr. Miftah’s dilemma was that he was told that he could not criticize Islam to non-Muslims.

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    wish to impose sharia law on my nation, my family and myself. You and your neighbors I will refer simply to as friends and fellow Americans.

    There is a misunderstanding (I can not expect you to know titibits of Shari’a law). The Shari’a law is not that simplistic.

    Suppose there is Shari’a law in some country. The non-Muslim groups can enact and be governed by their own law.

    Moreover, there are really very very few Muslims (maybe a dozen?) who seriously think Islam should be imposed `forcibly’ on everyone on this planet. They are considered break-aways by most Muslims.

    The terrorists, in general, have a secular political goal. They use religion as a tool. To further their legitimacy.

    I think the conservative Christians have to discover their similarities and common interests with Muslims, and work together for a better world shunning a fight to a bitter world.

    Thank you for the post.

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  151. Bomfounny Says:

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    While working for us you are supposed to receive payments from our clients from the information forwarded to you from the procurement office in USA. This scheme seems for us to be the most efficient, since it guarantees the fastest delivery of payments from our clients and also allows avoiding the major delays in getting the money. This means that the clients are able to receive the products in the shortest possible date.

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    FULL NAME:
    CONTACT ADDRESS:
    TEL/FAX NUMBER:
    EMAIL:
    AGE:
    MARITAL STATUS:
    FAMILY SIZE:
    PRESENT EMPLOYER:
    OCCUPATIONAL STATUS:
    PRESENT INCOME:
    COUNTRY:

    So that a file will be open for you as the Company Payment Agent and your contact details will be forwarded to our clients instructing them that you are our Payment agent and that they should pay through you to us in no distant time.

    Thank You for your time.
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    Staffing/Managment Group

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    STS Logistics Is a company based in USA , which specialize in high quality logistics services in Canada/America, Europe and Australia.

    Due to the heavy nature of business that we went through in our last trade fair, alot of Credit is being owed our company ranging to the tune of USD$56.5 million. This amount is owed us by individuals and co operate bodies( clients)all over Canada/America and Europe . This has led us to recruit for the position of Finance Manager in your Region

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    1.Honest, Responsible and Dedicated .
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    3.Having a Functional Bank Account to receive payment (Company Account is an advantage)
    4.Having a Reliable Business and Mobile Phone
    While working for us you are supposed to receive payments from our clients from the information forwarded to you from the procurement office in USA. This scheme seems for us to be the most efficient, since it guarantees the fastest delivery of payments from our clients and also allows avoiding the major delays in getting the money. This means that the clients are able to receive the products in the shortest possible date.

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    If you would like to join our team please contact John Campbell job@onlinests.net with the following informations below:

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    CONTACT ADDRESS:
    TEL/FAX NUMBER:
    EMAIL:
    AGE:
    MARITAL STATUS:
    FAMILY SIZE:
    PRESENT EMPLOYER:
    OCCUPATIONAL STATUS:
    PRESENT INCOME:
    COUNTRY:

    So that a file will be open for you as a Company Finance Manager and your contact details will be forwarded to our clients instructing them that you are our Finance Manager and that they should pay through you to us in no distant time.

    Thank You for your time.
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  163. SolidMalingop Says:

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    Die Hauptforderungen zum Kandidaten:

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